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Author Topic: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures  (Read 3809 times)

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Dan Jones

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Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« on: April 05, 2016, 03:29:48 AM »
I would like to get permission to copy an Intertype picture posted previously on this site as "Intertype Factory 1966", page three, where the photo subject is a row of Monotype punch engraving machines. Pictures were taken by Stan Coutant. I have a Monotype punch engraver and I believe it could be in one of the pictures. I have almost no information on who rescued it from the scrapyard, and I know that Linotype also had these machines so it is a 50-50 chance at best. Thanks! Dan



John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 07:56:06 PM »
Dear Dan,

are you planning to produce new punches for matrices?

At the Type-archyve in London they still do, but only from the old patterns. There they have all the knowledge. And they are planning to produce a manual on punch making and matrix making...

It would be a nice project to make a new revival font.



Dan Jones

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2016, 01:49:30 AM »
John, I would very much like to produce punches from  this machine, here is what I have posted on Flickr so far showing the progress.
A full font of 80 or 90 punches is an intimidating prospect, I look forward to the Monotype book on the subject.
You mention patterns, this is a good subject. What process can produce smooth shapes and is inexpensive; also, there is no room for a regular pantograph in my shop. Maybe hand-cutting the shapes is  the best option.
If possible, I would like to post the Intertype pictures on Flickr, giving the appropriate credits.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/49367257@N07/albums/72157637981672124

Best regards,

Dan

John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2016, 10:07:11 AM »
Dear Dan,

This engraving machine was designed by Benton around 1860 or so. This invention was an essential step, with it identical punches could be made in series.

Before this punches only could be made by hand, and when a new punch was needed, it could not be made perfectly identical.

.....

The original patterns were made first in wax, the  pattern was taken out, a thin layer of metal was added by electro-deposition, and the result was filled with molten lead.
 
I think photo-polymere would do quite fine for producing the patterns. With modern design-programs it should be possible to make the perfect line-pictures of the characters.

That manual... I do not know how far they are with this. But the place to investigate this would be the Type-archyve in London UK.

When you would be able, you should visit this museum and meet Kumar, the very man who preserved all this knowledge.

I know a few other places where Benton engravers are preserved, I've seen a few of them in Swiss, at the Parnassia printery and typefoundry. They also make matrices, but this is done by direct engraving, with a precision pantographe, as far as I know.

.....

While producing new Monotype fonts, you do need in mind, the unit-system Monotype used.

The wedges were adjusted to this, and the widths of the characters were equal to whole numbers of units.

However, with the use of computer controlled casting, the program can adjust the width of all character if needed, and even a correction of a quarter of a unit (or less) is perfectly possible. The only disadvantage is that each correction needs two machine-cycles, and would slow down casting a bit. But, who cares about mass-production with a project like this ?

Jan van Krimpen did complain a lot about that unit-system... But computer controlled casting on a monotype will give us all the freedom we need.

Dave Hughes

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2016, 06:04:27 PM »
I would like to get permission to copy an Intertype picture posted previously on this site as "Intertype Factory 1966", page three, where the photo subject is a row of Monotype punch engraving machines. Pictures were taken by Stan Coutant. I have a Monotype punch engraver and I believe it could be in one of the pictures. I have almost no information on who rescued it from the scrapyard, and I know that Linotype also had these machines so it is a 50-50 chance at best. Thanks! Dan

Sorry about the slightly late reply Dan, no problem with you using the pic, please feel free.
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Dan Jones

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 01:30:09 AM »
Dave, thank you, I will credit the original photographer and the Metal Type Forum.

John, my goal is to make a large comp. punch & matrix, and write about it. I will make future updates to the Monotype section of this Forum. Your comments are appreciated, it appears for now there are only two surviving Pierpont-style punch engravers, one at the Type Museum in London and the other in my shop; a very sad situation. The older Benton engraver is much more common, check out this video from a Japanese company:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAHSckibMmg

I just completed a 37 page book of trivia about the Super Caster; I have one in my shop, however right next to it is a 15 x 17 English comp machine that needs to get going. I have the matching keyboard (needs rebuilding due to what looks like stuck air pistons) and a box of Monotype paper, so there is lots to do!

Best regards,

Dan

Christophe Slychan

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2016, 05:51:59 AM »
Hi,
I'm sure John could tell you a lot about what needs to be done, and lend a helping hand too. Actually, a machine is not enough - a caster needs moulds, matrix cases, wedges, nozzles and a whole manner of special tools and spare parts, as well as the special Monotype mould oil; a keyboard needs keybanks, keybars, stopbars and justifying scales. This stuff is hard to come by nowadays as it's no longer manufactured; whoever has it, sticks to it or will sell it for a hefty fee.
Equipment such as matrix cases or moulds can be bought at eBay, but caveat emptor - it's often in a bad shape, used without proper care, scratched or downright destroyed.
Keyboard equipment is even harder to get, and you would end up with a load of those stopbars and keybars for just a few typefaces. It was all special and not very flexible, the Monotype "control program" was defined with mechanical parts.
"10 most common mistakes made by beginner programmers: missing semicolon, undeclared variable and an off-by-one error."
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John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2016, 05:37:23 PM »
Only two of these punchmaking machines left ?

 I've seen at least two of them in Vättis, Swiss.

They were/are at the Parnassia typefoundry... of Hans Ulrich Frey. I do not know whether they were ever used, but they were in their storage some years ago.

see: www.parnassia.org



Dan Jones

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 01:28:23 AM »
John, thank you for the engraver information, the more survivors the better.

Christophe, I have all that, it is time that is the controlling factor, having just retired from my full-time job. I trust I can use your Monotype advice and others on this forum in the future.

Regards, Dan

John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 09:18:52 AM »
In producing matrices, I have another wish too: electro-copying:

Making matrices for special fonts, where you do not have the matrices.

And sometimes even when the matrices are there, those cannot be used, because the intrinsic historical valueof the originals.

There is an Amercan book that contains a lot of info about these techniques, although it does not show all details.

       Theo Rehak, Practical Typecasting, Oak Knoll, Delaware, 1993.

The way this book treats Monotype Large composition casters... stripping it almost completly, to take away all possibillities for compostion casting...

American supercaster matrices, those could be cast on the English produced suercasters, but the special attachment for it, I have never seen it, and only pictures of it in the book of parts,

I wonder whether the drawings of it, would survive at the typearchyve ?

I think it should be possible to make supercaster matrices with 2 or even 4 matrices in it, when the font is not to large. Placing the matriix so that it lines perfectly with the others, and also on the body that is another story.




Dan Jones

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2016, 12:34:14 AM »
John, I believe what you are referring to is the Super Caster bridge and mat holder for foundry matrices? The Super Caster foundry matrix holder is as you know quite rare, however there are Monotype part numbers and drawings for this.

As an alternative, I made a simpler holder for foundry matrices and cast from it; 26pt. type from Kelsey matrices out of Rich Hopkin's collection. It used components and the bridge from my American flat mat holder. The drawback for any holder like this is that the set screws used to hold the matrix in place scratch the sides of the mat, I'm sure a "no go" for any museum.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/49367257@N07/4562000970/in/album-72157624005188759/

Best regards,

Dan




Christophe Slychan

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2016, 07:39:54 AM »
Hi,
I'd really like to know more about this typefounders' matrix attachment. Is it a modified version of one of the original holders? If so, what needs to be done?
 Our museum would be interested in getting one because we have quarter a million old mats inherited from the Warsaw Type Foundry. They were originally used on Foucher and Künstermann casters, but we don't have these machines up and running, and frankly, from what I've heard, they are quite hard to readjust for different products, so I'd stick with Monotype.
"10 most common mistakes made by beginner programmers: missing semicolon, undeclared variable and an off-by-one error."
Technical specialist at Book Art Museum, Lodz, Poland
http://book.art.pl/index.php/en/

John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2016, 09:25:56 AM »
Dear Dan

Googling I found your name somewhere attached to Canada... Do you have a website?

I'm a Dutch. and it would be quite something to organize a physical meeting. 




Dan Jones

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2016, 04:57:11 PM »
John, please contact me by e-mail. Do you get the ATF Newsletter? My e-mail address is on page ten of the latest issue #41.

Regards,

Dan

John Cornelisse

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Re: Intertype factory tour 1966 pictures
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2016, 08:34:43 PM »
I do not have this newsletter of the American Typecasting Fellowship.

I will try to find somebody who has this issue, I tried to find the source of  ATF newsletters, but google didnot offer a big help up to now.

You can find my email address at: http://drukwerkindemarge.org/drukkers/drukkers-op-alfabet/

the name of my private press and typefoundry is: Enkidu Pers.